Episode #13: The Future Of Regenerative Medicine Cont'd

Published: February 18, 2020


Show Notes:

Show Notes:

Speaker 1: (00:00)
Hey doc, welcome to the simplified integration podcast. My name is Dr. Andrew Wells and this is episode number 13 the future of regenerative medicine,

Speaker 2: (00:11)
Leonardo da Vinci once said that simplicity is the ultimate sophistication and I agree. You see the problem with the way that most consulting groups approach medical integration is anything but simple. In fact, it's the exact opposite. It's expensive, it's complicated and quite frankly it's exhausting. Enough is enough. There are far too many amazing integrated clinics that are struggling. Well, I'm on a mission to change that. What I've come to find from over five years working with integrative practices is that simplicity really is the secret. The old saying of less is more is true. Through a streamlined approach, I was able to create multiple successful seven figure integrated clinics and now I'm going to show you how you can do the same. Join me as I share with you the secrets to successful medical integration and practice growth. Join me on a journey to greater sophistication through innovation. I'm Dr. Andrew Wells and welcome to the simplified integration podcast.

Speaker 1: (01:08)
Welcome back, doc. It's great to have you on this episode. The future of regenerative medicine. And I have two guests on the phone with me right now. I want to welcome Alyssa Flores and Paul Clemons. Welcome very much. Thank you for having us. Yeah, it's great to have you on here. So, um, the reason this is a continuation of the last podcast, episode number 12, which is the future of regenerative medicine. And, um, I want, uh, I wanna I want docs to recognize that there's a transition happening right now in regenerative medicine. So if you listen to the last episode in the last five years, most doctors have been, uh, mainly doing what I call sort of the hit and run approach to regenerative medicine. Meaning they do some advertising, they have a patient come in and they do a seminar and then convert that patient into a paying cash patient.

Speaker 1: (01:55)
So that strategy has worked really, really well for the last five, 10 years. But the issue that's coming up right now is a couple things. Number one is that regenerative medicine is getting a lot more competitive. So, um, Alyssa, do you mind muting your phone for just a second? It's a little bit loud on your end if you don't mind. Thank you. Cool. So regenerative medicine is getting very, very competitive. So if you're in a major market like Chicago, Dallas, Houston, Nashville, New York, LA, there are dozens and dozens of doctors who have gotten on board with regenerative medicine, which is great because it's a fantastic therapy. But the problem is doctors are now finding it harder and harder to compete, compete for that limited patient who is looking for alternative, uh, alternative therapies to surgery and cortisone. And, uh, so it's been getting more and more competitive.

Speaker 1: (02:42)
The ad costs have gotten a lot higher. And that model, by the way, still works in a lot of areas. So if you're in a smaller area, a rural area, I know lots of docs who are doing really, really well with the cash regenerative medicine model. However, again, as more and more docs enter this space, it's getting more competitive. So about a year ago, um, uh, Alyssa actually reached out to me and saw me on Facebook and, uh, we connected and she presented a really, really innovative approach to regenerative medicine that I wanted to share with you guys today. And, um, I was unaware that this, this strategy and this system actually existed. However, I knew of other docs that were doing something like it. I just didn't know what it was. And so let me give you an example. I talked to a doctor not too long ago and he called me up and he was really frustrated with his regenerative medicine program.

Speaker 1: (03:27)
He said, listen, I'm, I've got a guy right down the road from me. He's charging 500 bucks per injection. And I'm like, well, what is he, what is he doing? He's like, it's a re, it's, it's STEM cell therapy. And I'm like, no, it's not STEM cell therapies probably doing PRP. And he said, no, no, no. He's doing, he's doing regenerative medicine. It's not, it's not PRP. It's not, it's, it's STEM cell. And like, there's no way he can charge 500 bucks for regenerative medicine or a STEM cell injection. And he, like, he insisted that that's what he was doing. So what I came to find out was he was using a completely different strategy, this doc than all the other docs in his town. And he was kind of putting everyone else on a business. And what I discovered was he was using this exact strategy that we're going to talk about today. And so that's why I have Alyssa and Paul on the line to sort of explain where this, uh, where the strategy came into play and how it's going to help doctors, not only now, but in the future to come if you want to be relevant in the regenerative medicine game. So, um, so listen, Paul, if you don't mind, thanks again for being on, if you don't mind sort of explaining where this, where this concept and the strategy came about.

Speaker 3: (04:28)
Absolutely. I'll talk first and then Paul kind of chime in and I'll introduce myself. Alyssa Flores. Um, I own a couple of different companies here in Arizona and uh, been in the regenerative medicine and biological space for quite some time. Really studying the trends of regenerative medicine and what the FDA is doing, what the claims are, and really just studying what not only the FDA's doing but what our physicians are making claims of. So it's oftentimes that I come into clinic and speak with doctors that they assume that they're doing STEM cells when you're not going to get STEM cells in a bottle. For the most part. We teach them and we educate them on our products. Um, we have a few different options and we have passed play as a vertical in what we offer today. And then we have a Q code for insurance reimbursement. So I'm going to go ahead and pass the concept. Paul Clemen handles all of our doctor meetings and closing and he will go into more detail about our program. And Andrew. Um, so yeah, so basically what I started, I'm a practice consultant, but I started seeing a transition when I'm talking to, I would go and talk to clinics and find out what they're doing for a different therapies and other joint issues, talk to independent practices, talk to dog, uh, kinda factors as well. And so

Speaker 4: (05:58)
we found that when talking to more and more practices, I found there's a transition to where independent practices, medical doctors are struggling in their business and they don't want to, but they don't want to join some type of a hospital network. So they're looking to do something different. And then I talked to chiropractors that are in a sense struggling with reimbursements in the chiropractic side. And so I, I started realizing that there was a niche out there to where chiropractors and doctors can start working together and, and work on integrating practices. And now, you know, we're seeing kind of a transition where, uh, that starting to happen more and more. We're, we're seeing doctor or chiropractor start to partner up maybe and start to maybe get credentialed in order to be able to do, uh, more programs. And more sources for their patients and in doing so they're able to start billing for insurance in and I started when I was talking to the chiropractors and people that are in the cast.

Speaker 4: (06:58)
For some reason there was this thought that they have to be scared to go Medicare because of their all these rules and what you'll find if you do it right. Medicare is actually a great source for for income and so when they started showing the doctors and chiropractors how you could take our programs like our OEI program where we're doing disco supplementation and combining that with regenerative medicine is a great combination because it allows you to not only treat those patients that maybe don't have insurance and they are looking more for cash, but your mom had a Medicare patient that you were turning away because they didn't have the cash. You can now boot do both and so that's why we kind of really started developing this program to show doctors, help them integrate. We can help them with their billing, the whole nine yards and be able to start doing and showing them this really new program.

Speaker 4: (07:51)
Using a guided arthroscopy. So you have a guided disco supplementation or short term pain to eliminate, um, you know, to just get rid of the swelling and inflammation that's in the knee. Bring that back to you, know that the integrity back to that joint, but then also introduce, you know, high amniotic fluid. And then again, that's also either cash or that's also billable that has a Q code. You start going [inaudible]. So the program is amazing and we're really seeing a lot more reception to it and a lot more doctors and chiropractors are wanting to start to integrate. So for these chiropractors that I don't, you know, I don't know where to start. I don't know how to do this. We can help you with that. But trust me, when I say there's lots of NPS nurse practitioners and MDs out there that are looking for something like this, they're looking for these chiropractors that are wanting to integrate because they do not want to get into the AMA protocol, standard hospitals, stuff that really limits their abilities and actually their tag. So Rams. Great. You

Speaker 1: (08:56)
bring up a really good point and just speak to chiropractor. Is there a sort of two groups right now that are interested in this? One group are the chiropractors who have done regenerative medicine and they're finding it harder and harder to get patients in their practice. The other group are chiropractors who have now seen regenerative medicine. They know it's real. They know it's not like a flash in the pan. It's not going away and they're trying to get into it. And one of the biggest struggles that chiropractors are having with these programs is they just, you know, they're, they're hidden. They're banging their head against the wall because these patients are coming in and they want help and they don't want cortisone, they don't want surgery, they want alternative therapies for joint pain. But then when you present them with a four or five, six, $10,000 cash care plan, they're like, Holy cow, I can't afford that.

Speaker 1: (09:37)
So in the past we've had, we've been turning away hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of patients that really want help. And one of the things that I, I didn't really understand at first was that the patient really doesn't care what the therapy is. They just want to, they want to know two things. They want to know will this help me and how much does it cost? And when I say they not gonna they don't care what is, what the actual therapy is yet of course they do, but they want to make sure a lot of patients want to make sure that it's not dangerous or invasive and they, they're trying to stay away from surgery. So they want to know two things is, is this going to help me with my joint pain and what does it cost? And with regenerative medicine and a lot of patients, we felt really confident and yes this will help you.

Speaker 1: (10:15)
But it was the money barrier. That was the thing that kept, that kept patients away. And so the clever thing that Paul and Alyssa have done now is they've taken away that that cost concern because like Paul just mentioned it, you don't have to be there. There are things that Medicare will reimburse for. There are things that private insurance will reimburse for that doesn't have to be risky. That doesn't have to be a huge compliance risk. Right. And what I mean by risky and compliance risk, because there are so many consultants and management groups that will teach you what I call, it's a phrase you've probably heard before. I call reimbursement dumpster diving, which is a go out and find any old crap that they think insurance will reimburse for. And they teach chiropractors how to bill for it, which is completely insane. Like it's not, it's not patient first, it's not patient forward.

Speaker 1: (10:58)
It's, it's fine. It's finances first. And so a lot of chiropractors who have been integrated for years will know what I'm talking about when I say, uh, reimbursement, dumpster diving. There's looking for any old thing that insurance will, will pay for to keep their office overhead paid and to pay their doctors and to take home some income. And so what Paul is mentioning here is that there are some great therapies and things that insurance and Medicare will reimburse for that aren't wacky and crazy. They're, you know, uh, it's, it's a standard of care. And so, um, and so when I first heard of this strategy, I'm like, wow, so you're actually eliminating a lot of the, the barriers that patients are coming up against, which is the cost barrier. And I was thinking like, we, we've turned away hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of patients that really wanted help. They just couldn't afford it. So from a business standpoint, we wasted, I don't know, like how many hundreds of thousands of dollars because we just didn't have a, we didn't have a therapy to offer our patients when, when now we do. So, um, yeah. So does that, uh, Paul, is that an inaccurate description of what you're finding as well?

Speaker 4: (12:00)
Yeah, I mean, so I, it's almost a fear. So I spoke to a group of 50 chiropractors a few months ago and, um, you know, the consensus was, you know, they were all, but now most of these doctors are in a room. We're looking to now start to integrate their practice to try to find an NP or an MD that they could partner with in and get into it because they're starting to realize there's a novel out of alternatives. There's only so many or so many, so many places that a doc, a chiropractor can go, you know, and in, so when you start getting squeezed, there's not a lot of other things to do and now you add a laser or something like that, but you're still struggling. So, so they realize they have to do something different. So not sharing insurance in Medicare and especially when we have the ability to show you how to set it up and the right programs because Medicare laws, disco supplementation, it keeps people from, you know, those particular patients from Atlanta actually going in to get, um, I me replacement, I mean you're talking 40, 50, 60, $70,000 knee replacement that Medicare is just getting killed on.

Speaker 4: (13:04)
So to be able to pay for a fiscal supplementation program laid out there to, there's not an issue when you start talking about this cost supplementation. So to be able to, to introduce both a short term, uh, um, if you will, treatment to be able to, to address that, that inflammation and then more of a longterm approach as far as the regenerative side to help rebuild that cartilage. It's a good termination, but now you can, you're not sending these patients away. You have something that you're going to be able to treat every patient that walks in the door. And so obviously that's going to affect your bottom line. You're going to see revenue generation like never seen before. Not only that, but it's going to bring those Medicare patients and patients that have not gone to you. They're going to start to come to you now because you can service them a lot better. So it's going to separate you from the other 30 chiropractors that might be in town that aren't doing this.

Speaker 1: (13:56)
Yeah, that's so smart. And would you do me a favor and kind of break down what the, Oh, so there's, we're talking about two different things here. We're talking about OAI the [inaudible] program and then also regenerative medicine. So can you kind of break down in a nutshell, like what, what is the OAA program consist of?

Speaker 4: (14:14)
Well, so the only pro right now, this was supplementation has been thrown around quite, it's been around for a long time. Uh, there are so many desperate protocols for, for viscosupplementation, there's using Synvisc for a one injection. There's, there's three and five injection protocols. There's just, there's, there's palpation, there is using ultrasound cities using fluoroscope. So there's a number of different ways. So what we try to do is tighten it up and have one standardized way to do it. And we know when we're working with Medicare, it's best to have as much documentation as you can. So palpation and ultrasound are fine, but when it starts, when you start having issues, when you're document documenting a procedure that you're now going to tell Medicare, you better have all your T's crossed. So by using, you know, our program where you're using a guided flow scope, it not only is it going to help and be more precise when you're doing the injection, but you're also going to be able to take pictures and document those injections and you're also going to be able to immediately when that patient comes in and you're going to be able to take an extra day and find out for sure and verify that they do have osteoarthritis before you line them up on the protocol.

Speaker 4: (15:26)
And then the protocol, depending if you're doing a five injection and working with Medicare and you now are able to bill in a series of, uh, different, uh, codes that are, are very lucrative. And so not only are you helping the patient a short and long term, you can now have a very good revenue stream because you're able to build for 40 use of fluoroscope area, heavily use on the use of hydrotic acid that goes into that knee and you're billing for x-rays and new bracing and things like that that are in the protocol. So, uh, it's just a great program that's going to bring in, you know, two, three, four, five, $6,000 worth of, uh, revenue on that one patient depending on, on what parts of the program, on our program that you can, that you can implement in your, in your business as you, as you start to ramp up, um, doing the fiscal program.

Speaker 1: (16:24)
Yes. I just want to make sure that doc's heard that. So you're using tried and true therapies for joint pain like viscosupplementation, but you're also getting several thousand dollars in revenue for the per joint, is that correct?

Speaker 4: (16:36)
Yes. And then, and then the nice thing is, is that again, that's not only are you do that if we can show you how to maybe add or, uh, DME credentialing and you can now start to bill for a brace that you definitely want to be using on that patient because it helps offload, um, and take more weight off that knee to allow it to heal even more. So when you can start to be able to add that to your practice, uh, and tear your revenue, that really starts to take it from not only just charging for the, uh, the fiscal injections itself. You're are able to now start billing for the knee bracing. And if you can do physical therapy, that's the other step. That's the final step in the fiscal program that allows you to maximize revenue generation because you can treat that patient from start to finish. Otherwise, if you're, if you can't really just physical therapy and your process, then you were sorting that out. But it's a way to now refer those patients that need physical therapy to the PT and get them to maybe refer new patients back to you to do the Vesco on or the regenerative physical therapy program therapy. We have a better outcome for everybody.

Speaker 4: (17:50)
Yeah. So basically what's happening, you went to physical therapy depending on the practice. Um, if you're able to do physical therapy on site, obviously it's a, it's an integral part of the, the final step in, um, helping that knee. Um, you know, completely where we're now when we started this disco supplementation, adding lubrication to that joint now starts to loosen it up where they can start to have better movement. Uh, you put the knee brace on until we offload that pain to help, uh, get a little more inflammation gone and now you've, the final step is getting it to a PT to where they now start to build, build this strength, strengthen that muscle, that little muscles around that knee joint and able to get them back walking if they're, if they're struggling with that. So the physical therapy is a big part of this protocol.

Speaker 4: (18:39)
And so if you can do it, great, because it does reimburse financially reimburse very well. If you're not in a position to be able to do that at your practice, then that's fine. Then you can roll it. Then you can actually refer those patients to physical therapy. But again, what's going to happen once you create that relationship with that physical therapy, they're going to do that practice. You're going to be able to work something out. What they're going to send you some patients back to be able to, you know, do the first two things, work on the uh, you know, do the uh, joint injections, you know, knee pacing and then again rotate them over back to the therapy. So, and it definitely is a very lucrative part to that get very lucrative parts about getting ready to close the deal and how can you better your relationship with your doctor.

Speaker 1: (19:53)
Yeah. And there's a, there's a few different ways that you can run this strategy that makes sense for you, the doctor and also makes sense for other relationships and people you work with in your town, but mostly for the patient. And so if you've been paying attention to this podcast, I hope what you're hearing is that you're now eliminating that high ticket sales process you have to go through, you're eliminating a patient barrier in the fact that they can't pay for it anymore. Now they can use their insurance to get help, the help that they need and so on. Also as it from a doctor, from a business standpoint, it's lucrative for you because you're able to collect, uh, on services like fiscal supplementation and fluoroscope guided injections and physical therapy if you can do that in your state. So it's a win win for the doctor.

Speaker 1: (20:31)
It's a win win for the, you know, it's a win for the patient. And so it's a really, it's a very, very clever and unique approach to modern day regenerative medicine. And that's something the one part we didn't talk about yet is the regenerative medicine component. So let's say that you're getting three K, four K, fiveK per joint on the [inaudible], the viscosupplementation side, right? So that's a, that's a very profitable patient. I'd take that patient all day long and let's say they still need help or they still want regenerative medicine. Now you can still offer that to a patient on a cash basis basis, but you can charge whatever you want for that. So if you want to be, um, if you want to be a really kind of the patient in charge of 500 bucks for that, you can do that because you've already made your money, so to speak, on the, on the insurance side, if you want to charge 1000 bucks, 2000 bucks, you can do that because you've now made your money on that patient and you can still pay your marketing and your overhead on the insurance side.

Speaker 1: (21:22)
So this was that strategy I mentioned on the beginning of this call. This was a strategy that this doctor was using and putting everyone else, all the other chiropractors out of business. He was charging 500 bucks per joint, but he was also collecting a bunch of insurance on the front end. So that was the business strategy that he used, uh, to attract more patients and to help more patients. And so maybe if you guys don't mind if you can talk a little bit about the regenerative medicine side and how that, uh, how you can implement that into this program either, um, right alongside the OAI program or just a standalone cash service,

Speaker 3: (21:56)
if you don't mind Paul, start with that. So as a distributor for this industry and the regenerative medicine space, my job has always been to look for the best of breed products, um, in the industry. And um, we have a product today that I think is the best. It's priced well and um, it's recognized to have great outcomes provider feedback. With that said, our verticals today cause the regenerative medicine side is trashedK and or Q codes for those that are not familiar with to code, that's the ability to have insurance reimbursed. So it gives our doctors the option to play on both sides. When they order, they just let us know which side they want to plan and then we send them the appropriate product. This gives the doctors the option to not turn away patients today that can't necessarily afford the cash side. Maybe that's all they can afford is to submit their insurance and see where it goes. We do have a full billing platform that we can help our doctors to be able to navigate through the billing cycle. We also offer a billing platform to help them do their billing if that's something that they're interested in doing with us. And then I'm going to let Paul talk a little bit about the properties of our regenerative medicine and how it does benefit our practices today.

Speaker 3: (23:18)
So we're talking about with regards to the properties, um, with regards to regenerative medicine, we offer HPRP option because we see the value in here. We see the value in therapy when the patient is healthy and the patient is in optimal position to receive their own fives. And we can get into all of that. When dr free chocolates, we also carry amniotic fluid. Amniotic fluid has been probably the lowest on the radar for the FDA as far as how st claims of live STEM cell counts. We don't claim to be a lifetime product. We don't ever claim to be a product that has multiple cells in it. If the million and above. As a matter of fact, we're educated to understand that there are no lifestyles in a bottle. So we treat every single provider that we deal with as if they don't understand regenerative medicine and we give them education, they bring on our medical provider.

Speaker 3: (24:27)
We talk about the different modalities. We talk about the science. For us, amniotic fluids, pure amnio fluid has been heaven sent because it's priced properly. The effectiveness has been amazing and the areas in which that you can provide this for the patient in the joint side has been wonderful as far as reducing inflammation, which reduces the pain. So pain doctor for plugged it chiropractors, integrated tire practice have loved it. Our physical integrated therapy has loved it. Naturopathic doctors love it. Our MDs are loving, their PA's are loving it. Our MAs are loving it, they're all loving it. Every state is different. So if you can legally soft tissue inject, this is a product you want to look at. When we discussed this with chiropractors, they are absolutely on board and they want to know more about it. So once you become a client, we host a one hour seminar call with regards to everything about our products and science to use cost, everything you need to know, we give you the facts, we educate you, and we want you to be educated prior to using the product. Because if you're not as dictated, we're not doing our job. So that's what I can say about our regenerative medicine. Andrew and I can just tell you that you know, we can pick any product in the market today, no matter what it is. We choose these products because they're safe, effective price properly. And we can have two verticals for our doctors. They can go cash or they can go insurance. And there's not products on the market today that I know of where a lot of them that offer these these points that I've just made.

Speaker 1: (26:03)
Awesome. Alyssa, you know, doc, if you're listening to this podcast, I really, really hope that you're understanding the strategy behind this approach, through the OEI approach and through the regenerative medicine approach. And so this is, this is a really an overview and I want to wrap up this podcast, but the, uh, if you want more information on what the details of this system are and how to implement this in your practice, we've actually created a webinar for this. So if you want more information, just shoot me an email@infoatintegrationsecrets.com and I'll make sure you get a copy of that webinar so you can learn more about the details of the program and how you, your office and your and your patients can benefit from it. So, um, Alyssa Paul, thank you so much for being on the podcast today. I really appreciate it. Uh, docs, I hope that you found this information beneficial and I hope you can use this information to help reach your practice goals this year. So I just want to sign off. Thanks again guys for being on. I really appreciate it and we'll see you on the next episode. Bye bye.

Speaker 2: (26:57)
Hey innovators. Thanks for listening to the simplified integration podcast. Fact that you're listening tells me that you're like me, someone who loves simplicity. And the truth is, those who embrace simplicity are some of the greatest innovators. So hope you got a ton of value from what we covered on today's episode. Be sure to subscribe and share with other docs that you feel could benefit from greater sophistication through simplification and innovation. If you've got specific questions that you'd like answered on this podcast or you've got specific topics that you'd like me to discuss, just shoot me an email at info at integration secrets,

Speaker 1: (27:32)
[inaudible] dot com that's info@simplifiedintegration.com.

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